Blog Archives
Salvation a process…
http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/38297-confronting-the-error-of-hyper-grace#comment-825316049
Comment from Steve Edwards:
Really…? Being saved is a process? Something we work at ? Have you read Romans 3:23 and Ephesians 2:8 ? Salvation is a gift from God. You can not work at it. It is a free gift. All you can do is receive it and be thankful!
Reply:
Eph 2:8 NKJV – For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,
Yes, a gift of God. In the sense that you cannot work for or achieve your own salvation. It is something God does for you. You cannot do it yourself.
What you are saying or implying, is that once you are saved, that’s it. You do need to grow anymore, or get rid of sin your life. Once you said the sinners prayer that’s it. Your saved. Can’t lose it again. Hey, if a simple once off prayer can save you, why don’t we take matter into our own hands even further and baptize our children. Leave them no choice in the matter, lets make God’s decision for Him and save our children ourselves.
This kind of reasoning leads to all kinds of other beliefs that is also not found in the Bible. Have you read the rest of your Bible? At least read the verses I already quoted with regards to losing your salvation. How do you explain these verses?
By your reasoning, anybody can be saved. It is totally and supremely up to God. We have absolutely zero influence. So why does God then not give it to everyone? Why would anybody then be lost?
Is love truly love if you have no choice in the matter?
Ofcourse there needs to be some kind of yardstick. God surely chooses the people He gives salvation to based on some kind of criteria? Would this not include the condition of your heart? Aren’t you in control of that? Does this mean if I really desire to be and work at becoming a better person, that the condition of my heart might improve to a point, that I do indeed become acceptable to God, and thus receive salvation. Can’t the opposite happen also, and due to neglect and sin, my heart condition become too vulgar for God and it’s no longer acceptable, thus losing my salvation?
Reasoning this way makes a lot more sense of more of the Bible, than claiming God does everything solely by himself. I have no choice in the matter and am just along for the ride, don’t need to do anything…
Hence also the reason I choose to describe salvation as a process. I do not believe I was truly saved, after the first time I prayed the sinners prayer. Nothing had really changed in my life. I still had the same sins in my life, and they didn’t go away immediately. James explicitly states, faith by itself is NOT enough to SAVE YOU! It has to become works, before it is a true saving Faith…
Jam 2:14 NKJV – What [does it] profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
Jam 2:17 NKJV – Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jam 2:18 NKJV – But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 NKJV – You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe–and tremble!
Jam 2:20 NKJV – But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:22 NKJV – Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
Jam 2:24 NKJV – You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Jam 2:26 NKJV – For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
You can take the doctrine of grace too far.
Jude explicitly warns against this:
Jud 1:4 NKJV – For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.
You say: Nothing had really changed in my life. I still had the same sins in my life, and they didn’t go away immediately.’
It doesn’t matter. You are missing the gospel. Jesus has paid the penalty for all of your sin so you will never be charged for them. No matter how many sins you commit, you are free.
Hard to comprehend, I know, but this is the amazing GRACE of God. This is THE GOOD NEWS.
Hi Steve,
Ofcourse it matters! Sin your life matters very much. God abhors sin. God is perfect and He demands perfection, He cannot stand imperfection. This is the very reason why Jesus had to die for us – to remove the curse and the due righteous penalty for sin, to reconcile us to Him. If your heart is truly in the right place, and you are really saved, you will want to become like Jesus. You will want to be sin free, just as He was.
So, yes, in a sense it does not matter how many sins you COMMITTED. These are forgiven without charge or question. But it does matter how many you are COMMITTING. If your heart is truly in the right place, you will want to please your heavenly father and commit less sins. Not having to heap additional punishment unto Jesus, that He now needs to atone for you… Think about this, and pray about it please.
You have to make sense of the entire Bible, and ALL of God’s character. Yes, in His amazing Grace He is prepared to forgive us our past. But He wants, no He demands much more of us in the future. And He equips us for the task through the Holy Spirit.
Go read Mark 1, for a proper definition of the Good News.
Friend, you are completely missing it. We cannot put more sins ointo Jesus. His sacrifice was enough to do away with all sin, ever! It isn’t a matter of wanting to be like Jesus. We ARE like Jesus. He LIVES in us and through us. We are absolutely powerless to overcome sin. We cannot. Christ has done everything for us. We are without sin, to God, cleansed and made perfect once for all.
Yes God demands perfection but we can and never ever could meet that perfection, so Christ made us perfect by his one sacrifice (Hebrews 10:14). It is all finished.
Sure, we should not continue purposefully in sin, but we cannot.
Only truly believing we are rightoeus in Christ are we able to live up to that righteousness. Seeing yourself as one who sins will keep you trapped in sin.
See yourself as God sees you – righteous, holy and perfect and you will begin to live that out.
Listen to Joseph Prince teaching on Grace and you may (I hope) be set free.
Reply
Brother, I sincerely hope I am not missing it, seeing as our salvation depends on it.
The more you sin, the higher the penalty Jesus needs to pay for you.
His sacrifice, is only available for those that accept it. It is not for everyone or for all sin. Otherwise the entire world will be saved and going to heaven.
We most definitely are NOT like Jesus. Otherwise we will not need a saviour in the first place.
The Holy spirit lives in us and through us, not Jesus. And this happens only if we let Him, and if our hearts are in the right place.
We are absolutely not powerless when it comes to sin. You are making the choice every day, not to grab a gun and start shooting people. The sins you commit are within your power to say no to. The problem is to keep doing it consistently, according to His commands. Which is why we get Helper to assist us and lead us.
Yes, Christ accomplishes salvation for us, but in return He expects us to live according to His commandments. Otherwise you have a dead faith, that will not save you.
Agreed, we cannot meet His perfection, but we are commanded to try to at least. If you are not daily repenting and working to get sin out of your life, then you are not in the process of sanctification, which means your heart is probably not in the right place, which means you could possibly not be saved…
Again, simply believing your sins are forgiven (even your future sins) does not make it so. Your faith has to become works, before it is a saving faith.
Seeing yourself as sin free does the exact opposite! It will remove any motivation to change to get rid of the sin! If there is no sin, why would you want to change at all?
I have listened to Joseph Prince, and come to the exact same conclusions as Dr Brown, and this article!
It is exactly this kind of mindset that is called Hyper-Grace. Please reread the article and your bible. While the grace of God is truly amazing and astounding, it is taken too far when it becomes a license TO Sin, and removes the need for repentance The bible clearly contradicts this doctrine in multiple places.
Though I do not think this mindset applies to you. You still seem motivated to change and get rid of the sin in your life, but what of the thousands of other barely born-again believers? Don’t you think it will be easy for them to misconstrue these teachings into a license to sin instead?
We cannot heap additional punishment onto Jesus. He is not on the cross anymore. He suffered once for ALL sin. His blood covers every sin by everyone, past present and future. God sees us as he sees Christ – even in the midst of our sin – perfect, righteous and holy.
Now that IS good news !
I think we can and do add to His punishment. Every sin I commit, I believe Jesus pays for. Now I can do nothing about past sin, but I sure as hell can do something about my future sin and conduct. If this is not motivation to change, I do not know what is. It is only when you start to take the cross and what Jesus did for you on the cross this seriously, that you will WANT to change, and you KNOW that your heart is in the right place…
Reply:
No He is not on the cross any more. But what did on the cross, He did for the sin of all the saints past present and future.
Yes His blood covers ALL sin – of those that are saved.
You need to distinguish whom God is looking at:
-When looking at a lost soul, God absolutely still sees sins, and hence He will condemn to hell.
-When looking at a saved soul, God sees Jesus’s righteousness instead.
-But what about looking at a soul that will be saved while still in sin? God is outside time, hence I believe God will see Jesus’s righteousness as well.
And it is from this perspective that Jesus’s sacrifice is ONCE for ALL:
Jud 1:3 NKJV – Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
It means that one act was enough to pay for all the sin, of everyone that have been (and will be) saved.
We cannot add to it, or do anything to negate that act.
It does not mean we can continue living in sin, because the sacrifice was big enough. You are commanded to change, and if you are not changing (in the right direction), then you do not have a saving faith, but a dead faith…
How do you explain James 2?
I hope you find rest and peace. You really can stop striving now. Jesus has done it all. There is nothing left for you to do. Rest, and be at peace. Your victory is your faith.
Hi Steve,
You know, I do have rest and peace. I know my heart is in the right place, and that the HS is actively guiding and speaking to me. I will never stop striving though to become more righteous and remove the sin in my life and start producing the fruit of the Spirit, because these are all proofs of my faith. I will not settle for a dead faith. I will have my crowns in heaven. I will endure my Father’s loving correction with all joy, and press through to the end. You can still trip up and take the wrong turning in this race, you have to press through to the end.
Hbr 12:1 NLT – Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us.
Hbr 12:2 NLT – We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith. Because of the joy awaiting him, he endured the cross, disregarding its shame. Now he is seated in the place of honor beside God’s throne.
Hbr 12:3 NLT – Think of all the hostility he endured from sinful people; then you won’t become weary and give up.
Hbr 12:4 NLT – After all, you have not yet given your lives in your struggle against sin.
Hbr 12:5 NLT – And have you forgotten the encouraging words God spoke to you as his children? He said, “My child, don’t make light of the LORD’s discipline, and don’t give up when he corrects you.
Hbr 12:6 NLT – For the LORD disciplines those he loves, and he punishes each one he accepts as his child.”
Hbr 12:7 NLT – As you endure this divine discipline, remember that God is treating you as his own children. Who ever heard of a child who is never disciplined by its father?
Hbr 12:8 NLT – If God doesn’t discipline you as he does all of his children, it means that you are illegitimate and are not really his children at all.
Hbr 12:9 NLT – Since we respected our earthly fathers who disciplined us, shouldn’t we submit even more to the discipline of the Father of our spirits, and live forever?
Hbr 12:10 NLT – For our earthly fathers disciplined us for a few years, doing the best they knew how. But God’s discipline is always good for us, so that we might share in his holiness.
Hbr 12:11 NLT – No discipline is enjoyable while it is happening–it’s painful! But afterward there will be a peaceful harvest of right living for those who are trained in this way.
Hbr 12:12 NLT – So take a new grip with your tired hands and strengthen your weak knees.
Hbr 12:13 NLT – Mark out a straight path for your feet so that those who are weak and lame will not fall but become strong.
Hbr 12:14 NLT – Work at living in peace with everyone, and work at living a holy life, for those who are not holy will not see the Lord.
Hbr 12:15 NLT – Look after each other so that none of you fails to receive the grace of God. Watch out that no poisonous root of bitterness grows up to trouble you, corrupting many.
The idea that God did it all and I can just sit back and receive it – only applies before you get saved – not thereafter…
j2god 