Free Will

Another exchange I had with a person on Charisma here that I wanted preserve, as Charisma seems to be deleting comments at will for no clear reason.

– This comment was deleted.

– Warrior > Guest
So God would only create people then that loved Him?
So how does this allow free will then? To truly love – is free will not requirement so you can say no to it? If God only made people that would say yes and love Him – would He not be creating a bunch of automatons with no choice the matter? Would it really be love then?

– This comment was deleted.

– Warrior > Guest
“What if your god would create people that hate him, wouldn’t that mean that they are still doing what they were created for?”

What if He creates everyone with the free choice to either love or reject Him?

“And yes, from the point of view of an all-knowing god we a complete automatons, doing strictly and precisely only what we were designed to do.”

Just because He knows your choices in advance, does not mean He condones or forces you to make them. You are still accountable for your own actions – even though God knows what they would be.

The fact God knows your future does not take away free will – nor does it mean God is now accountable for your actions.

“Because if we could do something that we weren’t designed to do then that would mean that this god isn’t either all-powerful (he has been unable to control everything according to the plan) or all-knowing (because he has been unable to correctly foresee what will happen) so he’s not actually a god at all.”

We were made in the made in the image of God. This means God made us as free moral agents, with free will to choose to either love and obey Him, or reject Him. If anything this shows how all-powerful and all-knowing He really is – this does not mean He is not all-powerful. How does this logic work exactly? How can you point to something (free will) that does exist – and then claim “See God does not exist”??

“And no, there is no love when dealing with an all-everything god since such a incomprehensibly powerful thing would simply not need our love and, compared to the immensity of the universe, would look laughable.”

Your right – God does not need our love. But He chose to be creative, to grant His creation sentience / consciousness. The proper response is to fulfill your purpose – to worship Him. God so ordained that the purpose of the universe is love. Love from Him to His creation, and from His creation back to Him. To have true love, you need free will so you can freely choose to have His love or not. He created an immense universe – to show His power to all. So that nobody is without excuse.

What is laughable is that you are actually claiming that God does not exist, because the universe is so immense He could not be bothered about us. As big as the universe is, so small and minute does cells and atoms and quantum particles become – which again shows His attention to detail. God is all-powerful enough for each of us to matter, to be loved – IF WE CHOOSE TO.

“But i have to congratulate you for asking the right questions. This is the first step into your journey of enlightenment, keep it up.”
Your world-view is so full of holes, you cannot even clearly convey what Christians believe. Please come up with better reasons for not believing – the reason you mention are – well, truly laughable and sad at the same time.
I pray God would send His Holy Spirit to remove this deception from you.

– nobody > Warrior
Now why would your god made me believe it in the first place, that’s what you should ask yourself.

– Warrior > nobody
God does not make you do anything. You are free to choose as you will, but you will have full accountability for your actions. That is what the whole story of Adam and Eve in the Garden is about. God first created man perfectly, in the perfect environment / heaven.
But He also gave them the choice – to have free will or not. Adam and Eve chose to have free will, and so sin enters the world, necessitating God having to become our savior. The only way to appease God’s perfect justice, is for the perfect sacrifice to be made. As humans we are incapable of doing it, which is why Jesus had to die on the cross – to bring the perfect sacrifice that forgives us all our sins and brings peace again between us and God. This again displays God’s perfect love and mercy and grace.It is freely available, for all that choose to have it – through faith.
Words fail to describe the beauty of this concept.
If you can understand this, then you are God’s child and can be saved – but if not, then you are lost and will pay the price for your sins against a perfectly Holy and just God.
I pray you will choose wisely and the Holy Spirit will reveal these truths to your heart.

– nobody > Warrior
Of course he does – if he wouldn’t it means that some things are out of his control which would make him less than all-powerful and no god at all.
Even if he made me specifically to disobey him then i still obey his design and his will.

– Warrior > nobody
That is the great paradox so few people get a handle on – how does God remain fully in charge, while at the same time allowing evil things to happen, and for people to make their own decision independent of Him?
Churches have been split and wars have been fought over this. For example, you get the hard-core hyper-Calvinists, that believe in extreme predestination, i.e. if God chose you, that’s it. You are saved, you cannot say no to this, you can even continue sinning, Once Saved Always Saved.
And then you get the hyper-Armenians, that says its all about free will. Your choice solely – not even God can intervene – you can save yourself, as long as you admit God exists.
I’ve wondered and studied so much around this topic – but in the end I found the truth somewhere in the middle. It’s a love-relationship. Yes God chooses people, but the people also need to choose Him and to continue doing so. So you can be lost if you turn your back on Him again. A mere admitting that God exists and saying one salvation prayer is not enough to save you though. You need to live this choice out – your beliefs need to become actions – otherwise there is no real faith. Does this mean a person repenting on his deathbed can be saved? Only God will know if this repentance was sincere enough.
Does this mean a person with a seemingly real relationship with God, praying in tongues and even doing miracles in Jesus name can be lost?
The Bible does seem to indicate this.
So how can you have any assurance then?
The Bible is full of assurance, for the pure-of-heart…
It boils down to faith and love in the end. If you really believe God exists, and work at stirring your affections for Him, and following His commandments, and producing the fruit of the Spirit, then yes, you can be sure of your salvation. But, if these are missing in your life, then you need to do some serious introspection.
I still do not know exactly how God balances all these out in our everyday lives. This weekend I buried one of my best friends from before my salvation, and another friend’s child that drowned in their swimming pool. How do you reconcile this pain and suffering with a loving, all-powerful God?
We do this through faith – At least if there really is a God – then we can know there is a point to all of this. There is something to strive for here-after, their is consolation in the grief we experience here and now, because there is a loving God that goes through our pain with us and we will see them in heaven again – if they choose to love God.
Life is so short, we should never let the opportunity go by to share the gospel – the Good News! That Jesus died for your sins, that can have peace with God – if you choose to…
It’s about accountability and authority. God chose to give you free will. With that comes accountability for the choices you make, and also the authority to make those choices. God clearly spells out what He would like to see you do with your authority in the Bible and the 10 commandments for instance. God says what He expects of us, but it’s your choice (free will) whether you will follows God’s laws because you love Him, or whether you will do your own thing. In which case you will face God’s justice with no intercessor (Jesus) for you.
So again, the fact that God allows His creation to “thwart His will” and make their own independent choices, does not mean that God is no longer all-powerful. Even through all of this, God will still bring about His will and purposes on earth, while at the same time allowing free-choice in the world. That’s how All-Powerful and All-Knowing our God is.
This does bring about a lot of pain and suffering, but this is allowed so that we can have free choice and therefore TRUE LOVE in this world. All the pain and suffering will compensated for with an eternity in heaven for the saint (or destruction in hell for the wicked).
Your choice.

– nobody > Warrior
So many words and not one single rational idea.

– Warrior > nobody
Lemme break it down for you then:
– God is love
– in order to have true love, you need free choice
– in order have a choice, you need
– the authority to make it
– carry the responsibility of that choice
Hence, even though God wants the best for his children, because of free will and the choices people make, pain and suffering results.
But even through the pain and suffering, and even though people have free choice, God still accomplishes His purposes on earth and saves those that dedicate themselves to Him, but will also bring justice on those that reject Him.
None of the above implies that God is impotent or not all-powerful or all-knowing. Nor does the fact that God knows your future choices imply any culpability or the removal of your free choice to act in the way you do, or the removal of you accountability for that action. If I could go into the future and see you’ll rob a bank, that knowledge does not make me culpable or accountable for your actions. You still carry that responsibility, even though I might know in advance what you’d be doing. Same applies to God.
Your reasons for not believing is flawed and silly.
Please come up with a better excuse for not believing, this one is easily refuted.

– nobody > Warrior
In order to have a free choice the outcome of your choice must be unknown to all those involved. Since your god is supposedly all-knowing it means that he knows all your choices and has known them since the creation of the universe. As such you have absolutely no free will. If you would have it you could make a choice that hasn’t been foreseen by your god which would make it anything but a god.

– Warrior > nobody
“In order to have a free choice the outcome of your choice must be unknown to all those involved.”

Why?

I know my son. Given the choice between homework and playing outside, he’ll be playing outside every time. Does me knowing the outcome of his choice make it any less free? Of course not.

The moment you are not limited by time, or you are outside of time – then all that will happen is known. Does it make the choices the people still trapped in time any less free? Of course not.

The fact that someone knows what you will choose have no bearing or affect on your freedom to make that choice.

“Since your god is supposedly all-knowing it means that he knows all your choices and has known them since the creation of the universe.”

Yes.

“As such you have absolutely no free will.”
Not true. The fact my wife knows I’ll be ordering a steak at the restaurant does not make my choice any less free. Someone knowing what my choice will be – does not mean I am not free to make that choice anyhow.

“If you would have it you could make a choice that hasn’t been foreseen by your god which would make it anything but a god.”
I take it you mean that if I had real free will (as per your definition), that god would not know my choice, and therefore He would not be god? Yes I agree.
As per the laws of physics, time is an integral part / dimension of universe. Which means time had a beginning. Which means by definition, God is outside of time since He created it. This is also the way God authenticates Himself, through prophecy – which proves a source / origin outside of time, and hence proves God.
So yes, if God did not know my choices He would not be God. But the fact that God does know my choices, does not mean I am not free to make them. Only once I have made them though, do I become responsible for them. So God has to allow the wicked to make their choices AND live them out – so that judgment can be made – hence evil and suffering results in the world we live in.

– nobody > Warrior
Actually your wife believes you will order stake , just like you believe your kid will go out to play – they don’t know it for sure they just guess that based on previous behavior. And they definitely don’t know that in 15 years from now you will go in a restaurant and add 23,4 milligrams of sauce to the third bite of stake that you’ll take – your god is supposed to know all that and even more: he will know the depth of every single breath till the day you die.
As such you have absolutely no free will to do anything other than he has foreseen at the moment he has created the universe. That or all of this is bs and your god is not a god at all.

– Warrior > nobody
Your argument is ridiculous. Please explain your logic. How does someone knowing your choice in advance, lead to you not having free will to make that choice?

– nobody > Warrior
I see that you aren’t smart enough to understand it so I’ll try to lower myself to your level: if a god knows/foresees the result of your choice before you are even faced with it yourself then the only result you can take is the one they have foresaw so you really have no choice at all. Because if you could choose a different result that the one foreseen then the foreseer is not actually capable of foreseeing, so no god at all.

– Warrior > nobody
“if a god knows/foresees the result of your choice before you are even faced with it yourself then the only result you can take is the one they have foresaw so you really have no choice at all.”

If you were to choose something different, then that choice would have been foreseen. It does not mean this is your only choice now suddenly? Please explain this logic. You could have chosen something different – but if you did, then that choice would have been foreseen.

Again, the fact someone knows what your choice will be, does not remove your free will to make that choice.

“Because if you could choose a different result that the one foreseen then the foreseer is not actually capable of foreseeing, so no god at all.”
Yes that is true, if you were able to make a choice God could not fore-see, it means God is not outside of time ergo no God.
But it does not follow, that because someone outside of time can know your choice in advance, that you are not free to make that choice.

– nobody > Warrior
Are you that dumb? If someone foresees your choice then, from his perspective (not yours you nincompoop), you have no choice at all, you must follow the exact path he foresaw.

– Warrior > nobody
Keep shifting the goals…
But it makes no difference – even from God’s perspective, you are still free to make the choice. It can be anything – the fact God knows what it will be – does not remove your freedom to make any choice you see fit.
What you are saying by your logic, is that any choice I make is God’s fault. He made me do it – so I can do anything I please and blame it on God?? This is just ludicrous. And to make it worse, you now turn this into a proof for God’s non-existence, because you claim because you have and experience free-choice / free-will, therefore God cannot know what you’ll choose, therefore there is no God??
Seriously, is this the kind of logic you’d stake your eternal salvation on?

– nobody > Warrior
No you utter idiot, from the perspective of an all-knowing god you have no free will whatsoever because if you would be able to choose something that means that he doesn’t know your true choice in advance so, logically, he ain’t all-knowing anymore and he he isn’t all-knowing then he isn’t a god.
Yes, that’s exactly right:L whatever you did, do or will do has been foreseen and approved by your god. If he wouldn’t have wanted you to do it then it would have changed the universe accordingly.

– Warrior > nobody

“from the perspective of an all-knowing god you have no free will whatsoever”

Of course you can have free will! The fact someone knows what choice you will make, does not remove or impact the “freeness” of that choice.

“because if you would be able to choose something that means that he doesn’t know your true choice in advance so, logically, he ain’t all-knowing anymore and he he isn’t all-knowing then he isn’t a god.”

Yes, with this I agree. It is not possible to make a choice God does not know about – therefore God is still God. But just because God knows your choice, does not mean He made you take that choice or left you with no choice. You still had to choose – But God knows what you’ll choose – He does not make you choose it though.

“whatever you did, do or will do has been foreseen”
True.

“…and approved by your god”
False. God does not approve of all choices people make. The fact He allows you free choice, does not mean He is not all-powerful anymore.

“If he wouldn’t have wanted you to do it then it would have changed the universe accordingly.”
This god would only have automatons serving him, with no choice in the matter but to serve Him. In order to have true love, you need free choice to either accept or reject it. If you cannot say no to the relationship, then its not really true love.

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Posted on 2016/06/30, in Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink. Leave a comment.

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