The basics of a saving faith

Varhaug old church (Long exposure) [Explored #4]

The discussion continues:
http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/38297-confronting-the-error-of-hyper-grace
Steve Edwards

It is not about being comfortable in our carnality, it is about the fear of condemnation being taken away so we no longer have any desire to live in our carnality. Knowledge of true Grace destroys carnal cravings and increases our desire for God. (The true meaning of ‘repentance’ is a change in direction of our devotion – from ourselves and our sin towards God – and it happens in our hearts – by the Power of the Spirit). Nothing we do. It is all God.

Anchal Ace Samuel Steve Edwards

Steve, I totally agree that we should not walk in fear of condemnation. Like I said, we can have confidence in God’s grace and love that God loves us and will accept us ONCE we repent and turn back to Him. Yes, repentance does mean change of direction, but as we become conscious of God and His character, we also become conscious of how short we fall, and therefore we repent and move towards Him. There is no contradiction.

Steve Edwards Anchal Ace Samuel

I’m sorry you are missing the Good News. The good news is we are FREE from sin. There is no short fall. In God’s eyes we are already completely perfect, holy and righteous. There is nothing to repent of. We are sin free. Jesus paid the price of it all. All God sees when he sees us is Jesus. That is the good news!!!

Anchal Ace Samuel Steve Edwards

Sorry this is not the good news. God has cleansed me of all sin, so that I would respond to His grace in a worthy manner, walking in my first love. We are not completely perfect and holy in God’s eyes. Being the righteousness of God applies to our spirit, when we repent (turn away from our sin). If we do not repent, we remain in our sin.

Steve Edwards Anchal Ace Samuel

We always turn away from our sin when we are in Christ. It is not us who do it – we are absolutely powerless – it is The Spirit (2 Cor 3:18).

Also, Romans 8: ‘You are not led by the sinful nature if the Spirit of Christ lives in you.’

Warrior Steve Edwards

Hi Steve,

Could you please read 1 John, and then explain how your beliefs is compatible with this book?

Here are some of the pertinent verses:
1Jo 1:5 NKJV – This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
1Jo 1:6 NKJV – If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
1Jo 1:7 NKJV – But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 NKJV – If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 NKJV – If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 NKJV – If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

1Jo 2:3 NKJV – Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1Jo 2:4 NKJV – He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 2:5 NKJV – But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
1Jo 2:6 NKJV – He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

1Jo 2:29 NKJV – If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

1Jo 3:3 NKJV – And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

1Jo 3:6 NKJV – Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
1Jo 3:7 NKJV – Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

1Jo 3:10 NKJV – In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor [is] he who does not love his brother.

1Jo 5:3 NKJV – For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Let me paraphrase these texts:

This gives a condition for receiving the cleansing blood of Christ – YOU HAVE TO WALK IN THE LIGHT.

If you claim you have NO SIN, you are UNDER A DECEPTION, and truth is not in you.

You have to keep confessing your SINS TO RECEIVE FORGIVENESS.

If you say you do not sin, you MAKE JESUS A LIAR, and the TRUTH IS NOT IN YOU.

If you do not keep His commandments and practise righteousness, then you ARE NOT BORN OF HIM AND A LIAR.

If you truly have this HOPE in CHRIST YOU WILL PURIFY YOURSELF.

If you keep on SINNIG, YOU DO NOT KNOW GOD.

If you do not practise righteousness (stop sinning), and LOVE your brethren, then you are a CHILD OF THE DEVIL…

I would really like to know, how you unify these texts with what you believe. Please explain this to me, as it would seem that your beliefs contradict these teachings.

Steve Edwards Warrior

You conveniently skipped 1 John 3:9 + 5:18. “Those who are born of God do not sin. They can not sin because they have been born of God.”

The problem is you are reading it without any historical or cultural context which is lethal. John was addressing a particular false doctrine permeating the church, the Gnostics, who believed they were saved but they had no sin. The first part of the letter is addressing this issue and is not addressed to saved believers.

There is so much here to discuss.

I’m posting some links to people who have already written on this: http://jesusgiveslife.blogspot…

Warrior Steve Edwards

Morning Steve,

yes, I skipped them because I wanted us to concentrate on the other verses. How do you explain this them:

1Jo 3:3 NKJV – And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

It clearly states if you have a hope in Jesus, you will purify yourself to become like Him. Note YOU do the purifying, not Jesus.

Or what about:

1Jo 3:7 NKJV – Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

If you practice righteousness, ie. deliberately get rid of sin in your life, then you are righteous like Him. Again, you practice the righteousness, not Jesus.

I don’t know man, I cannot just fub this off like you seem to do, with the reasoning that it’s not addressed to saved believers. This is precisely why this passage is so relevant. BECAUSE it deals with false beliefs in those times. There is nothing new under the sun, Satan just keeps dishing up old heresies in new packaging. Jesus gave explicit warnings regarding the last days apostasy and false doctrines and teachers. We have to do everything in our power to ensure we are not being deceived. I used to be an atheist, with a very strong belief in science and evolution, until the HS showed me the truth of Jesus. I will never again allow such a deception to rule over my life – I very often pray against this as I believe all Christians should. Our salvation depends on it. We are instructed to worship in Spirit and truth. This is extremely important!

Anyhow, I have a 2 other passages the HS reminded me of last night, 2 Peter 1:

2Pe 1:5 NLT – In view of all this, make every effort to respond to God’s promises. Supplement your faith with a generous provision of moral excellence, and moral excellence with knowledge,

Again, we are commanded to apply moral excellence (virtue) to our lives, and to learn more knowledge. The more you know of God’s word, the harder it will be to be deceived.

2Pe 1:5 NKJV – But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge,
2Pe 1:6 NKJV – to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness,
2Pe 1:7 NKJV – to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.
2Pe 1:8 NKJV – For if these things are yours and abound, [you] will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

See, a life close to Jesus starts with virtue or moral excellence, which leads to true knowledge, which leads to self-control, which leads to perseverance, which leads to godliness, which leads to kindness, which leads to love. And love is the ultimate expression of our faith. You do not become a Christian one day and immediately have true love for EVERYONE around you.

This is a process, and you have to work at it, practise it, develop it. Yes you will fail initially, but this why you can always turn back and ask forgiveness. You are bound to succeed eventually though, because God Himself in the form of the HS is helping you. This struggle for sanctification is immensely important for Christians, as it makes your trust and faith grow. It brings you into a closer and closer relationship with God.

However, in you doctrine / theology, you are cutting the legs off from under this process. This process cannot happen as you are heaping all this work on Jesus to do for you. You are taught not to do anything – you cannot even pray for this to happen!!

And the second passage:

Gal 5:24 NKJV – And those [who are] Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

How do you crucify the flesh in your theology?

Now remember the preceding passages clearly explains what the flesh is:

Gal 5:19 NKJV – Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
Gal 5:20 NKJV – idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 NKJV – envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like;

These are common sins. We all struggle with these, yet these are singled out and are so important that verse 21 goes on to say:

Gal 5:21 NKJV … of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told [you] in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

You will not inherit the kingdom of God if you practice these things!

Would like to hear your take on these as well.
Blessings.

Steve Edwards Warrior

You can’t just skip verses in a letter because it suits your opinion. You say: ‘YOU do the purifying, not Jesus.’ Really? I thought Paul taught that our righteousness a free gift. The verse says ‘Everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself.’ We purify ourselves by our hope in Him. By our faith. Our faith makes us righteous, holy and pure. See Paul Romans 3:23 + 5:17, Eph 2:8 and Hebrews 10:9 + 10:14.

If you believe you can purify yourself you are way off track. It is the LORD, who is The Spirit.

Warrior Steve Edwards

Hi Steve,

don’t we all skip certain verses when quoting scripture? Especially to prove our points or opinions?

No, the verse does not say we use the hope in Him To purify ourselves. The hope does not do the purification. A better reading would be Because of our hope in Him, WE purify OURSELVES. The hope is the reason for the purification. Because of our love and trust in His promises, our service, our duty is to purify ourselves. God will help us achieve this with the HS. It does not say or imply that we need not do anything!

It is not Hope that cleanses and purifies us. Read the text:

1Jo 1:8 NKJV – If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 NKJV – If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You get CLEANSED or purified by confession, by repentance of your sin!

Yes, Faith is a PART of what saves us. Go and study 1 John carefully. He makes the case over and over and keeps hammering on 3 aspects or reasons, to know true Christians:

1. By Faith
2. By Obedience to God’s commandments
3. By Love

ALL 3 of these are required for a saving faith. And James 2 makes this explicitly clear:

Jam 2:20 NKJV – But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

If you only have faith, and it does not become works your faith is dead and in vain and you are not saved.
Now I am not advocating for a works based salvation. You can also fall off the ledge on the other side, and only focus on works and not faith. I am saying you need a balanced approach of BOTH FAITH and WORKS (obedience, love, fruits etc) before you can truly be secure in your faith.

If the fruits are not manifesting in your live, your faith is dead.
If the obedience to God’s commandments is not manifesting in your live, your faith is dead.
If love is not manifesting in your live, your faith is dead.

Now notice, we are NOT SAVED by the above actions or works. You can still have all these works in your life AND STILL NOT BE SAVED if you do not have the correct FAITH.
It is still Jesus that does the saving, and His righteousness is imputed to us – By grace through Faith.
BUT a true saving faith WILL PRODUCE these works – otherwise you DO NOT HAVE a true SAVING FAITH.
Do you get it??

Steve Edwards Warrior

I’m bowing out now. Grace and Peace.

Warrior Steve Edwards

Hi Steve,

I know your arguments Steve, I’ve been there. I just wish you’d rely on your own reading and interpretation of scripture as much as you seem to rely on other people’s opinions. The HS will lead, teach and interpret the bible and it’s verses MUCH more clearly than anyone else ever could. You have to want it though with passion and pray for it without ceasing…

Anyhow, it was an awesome discussion, it really forced me to re-think and put into words my own faith. I really hope you learned as much as I did from this discussion.

Shalom.

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Posted on 2013/05/21, in Salvation, Theology and tagged , , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. Leave a comment.

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