How shall you be judged?


Some more comments from http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/38297-confronting-the-error-of-hyper-grace

Steve Edwards

you cannot become more righteous. he has draped you in a robe of His righteousness. Do you think you can add to the glory of God that is in you? The glory that is a beauty and majesty distinctive to Him, which he imputed to you?! You can not add to God’s beauty and majesty by your own good deeds (which are like filthy rags compared to God’s glory).

Steve Edwards

‘holy’ means ‘set apart for God.’ It does not mean purity. It means ‘be focused on God’ i.e stop filling your life with football, trash TV and porn and focus on Him. Don’t disagree at all. The more we focus on Christ, the more like Him we become. However, we cannot add to His righteousness, which is a gift.

Steve Edwards

God already removed the sin – at the cross. You are being constantly washed in His blood. He knew we could never do it, so He did it for us. It’s not that difficult to grasp. Once you get it, you’ll be like WOW. Now I get it! I hope you do. He will never ever punish you for your sin ever again. He crucified your sin on the cross. Amen!

Warrior Steve Edwards

Hi Steve,

look man, I get what you are saying. God’s grace is amazing, I know I screw up often and I can always go back to my loving father and repent and get His forgiveness again.

But you are going too far with this. You need to realize there are limits, and God clearly spells these out in the Bible. There comes a stage, if you persist in your sin, that God will give you over to deception and your heart will be hardened and you will no longer be able to discern truth.

You are better off making a conscious effort to get the sin out of your life – even though you might fail. Once God sees that you really want this, the HS will start changing you from the inside. Because you are making the effort, you are slowly changing your habits and are renewing your mind. It’s always a 50 / 50 two way effort. You do some and God supernaturally helps and assists you. You need to pray for this though and ask God’s help and repent and be sorry for your sin though.

However in your theology this cannot happen, as you are promoting a gospel that says I don’t need to do anything, I can just sit back and receive it… You are actually condemning people that do make the effort, and claiming we are somehow trying to “add to His righteousness”, or “Legalistic” or “saving yourself” – thus keeping them in their sin. I beg of you to prayerfully reconsider this!

Steve Edwards

You said: ‘I think we can and do add to His punishment. Every sin I commit, I believe Jesus pays for.’ Brother, how can Jesus pay for more sins you commit? He isn’t on the cross anymore nor will he ever be again. “He appeared once to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.” (Hebrews 9:26). You cannot add to His punishment. All of your sin has already been paid for. No matter what you do, however you mess up, God sees you as righteous, pure and holy because His blood is forever cleansing you, supernaturally.

Warrior Steve Edwards

Hi Steve,

do you really realize the implications of the theology you are preaching?

What if someone – lets take an extreme example – like Hitler who was a roman catholic. What if at some point in his youth, he prayed to God to salvation and forgiveness of His sin. So now he is forever saved? All His sin is cleansed and covered – FOREVER?

[Now before someone jumps on me for using Hitler – I am just using a hypothetical situation to make a point – this could apply to any mass-murderer or child molester as well…]

Come-on man, you have to see the fallacy of this kind of argument. In addition, you need to throw out half the Bible, with other verses which clearly state the opposite, and is not compatible with this theology.

We need to realize that God is outside time. The sacrifice He made on the cross, was enough for all sin – past, present and future – of the saints. Yes it includes my future sin – If I will press through to the end. If I drop out, then my sin never was covered in the first place – but because He is outside time He knew that – but we do not since we are still in time…

This is why we will all face the judgement seat. My sin is not actually removed and cancelled NOW. [though I can have faith that it will be] It is only at the judgement seat, that we will call on our savior to intercede for us. What will Jesus answer? “Well done good and faithful servant” or “Depart from me I never knew you”??

Steve Edwards Warrior

where did you get that from that your sin isn’t cancelled now and it will be at the judgement seat?

That’s not the word says!

“WE died with Christ and everyone who has died has been freed from sin.” Romans 6:6

“Those who are born of God are not able to sin.” 1 John 3:9 / 5:18

yes, God’s grace is enough to atone for ALL sin for those who put their faith in Him.

Warrior Steve Edwards

Rom 14:10 NKJV – But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2Cr 5:10 NKJV – For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things [done] in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Rom 2:5 NKJV – But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

2Pe 2:9 NKJV – [then] the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,

2Pe 3:7 NKJV – But the heavens and the earth [which] are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

1Jo 4:17 NKJV – Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.

Jud 1:6 NKJV – And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

The most illuminating is this one though:

Hbr 10:26 NKJV – For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Hbr 10:27 NKJV – but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

If you sin wilfully after salvation, you will receive judgement….

Mat 11:20 NKJV – Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent:
Mat 11:21 NKJV – “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Mat 11:22 NKJV – “But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.
Mat 11:23 NKJV – “And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat 11:24 NKJV – “But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”
Mat 11:25 NKJV – At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from [the] wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.
Mat 11:26 NKJV – “Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
Mat 11:27 NKJV – “All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and [the one] to whom the Son wills to reveal [Him].
Mat 11:28 NKJV – “Come to Me, all [you] who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 NKJV – “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Mat 11:30 NKJV – “For My yoke [is] easy and My burden is light.”

Steve Edwards Warrior

God judging the unjust is not saved Christians. We are justified by faith.

The 2 Hebrews verses you have quoted you are quoting out of context. This letter was written to the Hebrews, and the whole letter is about how Jesus sacrifice is better than the old testament sacrifices of bulls and goats which could never take away sins. He’s writing these verses to Jews who knew about Jesus, but had gone back to old testament sacrifices to cleanse them of their sins, this is why he says there is no more sacrifice for sin (if you sin willfully).

Old testament sacrifices did not cleanse the people of Israel of sin that they had committed willfully – only sins they had committed unwilfully- and only for past sins.

Jesus blood is better than the blood of bulls and goats – His blood cleanses ALL sin, past and future, willful and unwillful.

Therefore the Hebrews writer is saying if you sin willfully there is no sacrifice that can cleanse you. Jesus was the end of all sacrifice.

The writer is writing to Jews who are rejecting Jesus.

We really have to read these passages in cultural and historical context, or they can take on entirely different meanings.

Do you know Simon Yap’s website? He goes into Hebrews a lot.

http://hischarisisenough.wordp…

Warrior Steve Edwards

Hi Steve,

look the point I am making is that we will come before the judgement seat of Christ:

Rom 14:10 NKJV – But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Why is this necessary if according to your reasoning, we have been cleansed of sin forever?

You say “Therefore the Hebrews writer is saying if you sin willfully there is no sacrifice that can cleanse you. Jesus was the end of all sacrifice.”

I agree, the historical context need to be taken into consideration, but I don’t think it applies here. By this argument we can throw out the entire book of Hebrews as not applying to us, it only applies to Jews.

Why would this only apply to Jews? Is God not the same now and forever. Why would one set of rules apply to Jews and another to us? Are we not all grafted in?

I’ll take a look at his website thanks.

Warrior Warrior

Hi Steve,

I took a look at the article you sent, but no sorry I cannot get a grip on what he is arguing for. He ends it with:
–Begin–
In other words when you think that God’s forgiveness is given to you again and again everytime you confess you are treating the blood of Jesus as blood of bulls and goats.

If you are saved by grace and go back to practice the law, you are treating the blood as bulls and goats.

If you think that God has not fully justified you and you still need to confess to be forgiven, you are treating the blood of Jesus as an unholy (common) thing.
–End–

The text he bases the above assertions on says:

Hbr 10:29 NLT – Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us.

But the verses before this says:
Hbr 10:26 NLT – Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins.
Hbr 10:27 NLT – There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies.
Hbr 10:28 NLT – For anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

And then comes this verse:
Hbr 10:29 NLT – Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us.
Hbr 10:38 NLT – And my righteous ones will live by faith. But I will take no pleasure in anyone who turns away.”

So I think the people trampling on the son of God here in verse 29, refers back to verse 26. These are the same people, that are deliberately sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth. Or you make a case that it refers unbelievers, that have heard the truth, but deliberately turns away.

Yet he somehow interprets this to say, that if you are a believer, and you still confess and repent of your sin, then you are also treating Jesus’s blood as a common thing, and therefore also deserve the “much worse punishment” and are therefore not even saved??!!

I don’t know man, this just proves to me how far the Hyper-grace movement is able to stray, and how timely this article of DR Brown indeed is.

I was reminded of this passage:

Jhn 13:3 NKJV – Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come from God and was going to God,
Jhn 13:4 NKJV – rose from supper and laid aside His garments, took a towel and girded Himself.
Jhn 13:5 NKJV – After that, He poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe [them] with the towel with which He was girded.
Jhn 13:6 NKJV – Then He came to Simon Peter. And [Peter] said to Him, “Lord, are You washing my feet?”
Jhn 13:7 NKJV – Jesus answered and said to him, “What I am doing you do not understand now, but you will know after this.”
Jhn 13:8 NKJV – Peter said to Him, “You shall never wash my feet!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.”

The washing of the feet here I think signifies Jesus’s forgiveness of our sins. At first Peter did not get it, until Jesus in effect claimed if you do not allow me to wash you clean, you have no part of me. Now Peter gets it and asks Jesus to wash ALL of him:

Jhn 13:9 NKJV – Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, not my feet only, but also [my] hands and [my] head!”

Note Jesus’s response:
Jhn 13:10 NKJV – Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash [his] feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”

“He who is bathed” I believe refers to believers, and is a metaphor on the baptism as well.
Note however we only need to “wash our feet”. So we are clean in the sense that we have been regenerated and the new birth have taken place, YET we are still commanded to wash our feet. To repent of our sin, to become holy…

The “But not all of you” refers to Judas:

Jhn 13:11 NKJV – For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.”

And Jesus then goes on and explains:

Jhn 13:12 NKJV – So when He had washed their feet, taken His garments, and sat down again, He said to them, “Do you know what I have done to you?
Jhn 13:13 NKJV – “You call Me Teacher and Lord, and you say well, for [so] I am.
Jhn 13:14 NKJV – “If I then, [your] Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet.
Jhn 13:15 NKJV – “For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.
Jhn 13:16 NKJV – “Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him.
Jhn 13:17 NKJV – “If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.

So Jesus is saying, as I have become a servant to you, so we should become servants of each other, and forgive one another – as He still forgives us – so we should forgive our brothers. This is a continuous action. He would not have given this instruction, if we were not expected to ask for forgiveness in the future.

Note also this happened before the cross – so before Jesus actually atoned for our sins and washed us clean, he already proclaimed the disciples washed clean of their sins. This just proves the atonement of Jesus on the cross, not only works forward in time, but backwards as well…

Steve Edwards Warrior

and on Hebrews 6
http://revelationsingrace.word…

Steve Edwards Warrior

also read this on Hebrews 10:

Steve Edwards Warrior

we will stand before the judgement seat of Christ but we will be judged righteous – as we are in Him.

Check this out on Hebrews 6:

http://hischarisisenough.wordp…

and this on Hebrews 10

http://hischarisisenough.wordp…

Steve Edwards Warrior

It’s just that the Jews were going back to sacrificing animals – but the writer was trying to explain Jesus blood 1. has made us holy (10:9) and 2. has made us perfect forever (10:14). and 3. Has done away with sin once for all. (9:26)
The blood of bulls and goats was nothing compared to the blood of Christ.

Jesus’ blood cleanses from willful and unwillful sins, but the blood of animals did not, only from unwillful sins.

He is not warning believers, but Jews who knew about the power of Jesus, knew about the power of the Holy Spirit (from Pentecost) yet still insisted on sacrificing animals!

Historical context is everything here. As is 2 Peter 2:20.

Great article here on 2 Peter 2:20 btw.

http://hischarisisenough.wordp…

Warrior Steve Edwards

Hi Steve,

I don’t know where to start. I will try to be brief though.

Ok, I read your article.

http://hischarisisenough.wordp…

Firstly the author, quotes a lengthy article by a “John Thomas” which he then uses as the basis for his conclusions. Searching around for whom this is, I found the originals published here: http://lastdays.bereans.org/2….

Now this site, propounds a very disconcerting statement of faith here http://www.bereans.org/basf.ht…

It goes into lengthy details, which I do not have time or space to analyse, but suffice it to say the following:

– They deny the trinity here and claim there is ONLY ONE God. http://ads.bereans.org/cgi-bin…

– They deny the deity of Jesus, claiming He was a mere man – just special. http://ads.bereans.org/cgi-bin…

Now this is enough for me to summarily throw out any doctrines or conclusions that the author could possibly come to.

1Jo 2:22 NKJV – Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:23 NKJV – Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Please, I beg of you to really reconsider the beliefs you hold. Do not base them on what other people are teaching. Go and read your bible yourself and come to your own conclusions!

It took me all of 20 minutes to find a denial of Jesus in the teachings you seem to uphold. Please pray for your own discernment, and for the removal of any delusions. Pray for truth, and ask the HS to witness and lead you in the right direction.

Sorry but I will not read more from this site or teachings, I suggest you do the same. Blessings.

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Posted on 2013/05/15, in Theology and tagged , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. Leave a comment.

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